Re: [TRNSYS-users] QHEAT

2011/3/10 David BRADLEY <d.bradley@tess-inc.com>

Wang,
QHEAT is the amount of sensible energy that has to be added to a space to maintain it at its set point temperature. I am highly skeptical that it is possible or even correct to try and "verify" Type56 using steady state hand calculations. Type56 takes into account hundreds of interdependent phenomena and holding something like indoor/outdoor temperature difference constant is no guarantee that all of them will be constant. A few comments about your test: I assume you do not have any solar incident on your building as that would have a significant impact on QHEAT. Second, Type56 dynamically calculates (and can output) the convective heat transfer coefficient on the inside and outside surface of each wall. Those coefficients impact the overall u-value of the wall; make sure that you are using the same u-value in your hand calc as Type56 is using. Third; windows pose an even more complex problem as they are modeled as having a frame u-value, and a center of glass u-value that I believe is derated to account for edge effects. Make certain that the u-value you are using in your hand calculations and the u-value that Type56 is calculating are the same. Fourth, I assume that you have no internal gains, infiltration, or ventilation in your building either as these also would impact QHEAT. Fifth, if your building has multiple zones, make certain that all of them are at the same temperature. Sixth, if you are modeling a floor that is coupled to a boundary temperature, there is probably energy transfer through that surface. Seventh, the Type56 zones all have initial conditions; make certain that your calculation is done long after the start of the simulation to avoid any leftover transient effects.
David
On 3/10/2011 10:58, 王洋 wrote:
Dear all,

I want to know what is the QHEAT caculation model in TRNSYS? Because I assumed a situation: The indoor and outdoor temperature keep the constant all the time, based on the Energy Balance the QHEAT must be equal to the heat loss through the walls. But the result of QHEAT in TRNSYS is 6600 kJ/day, but the heat loss by Heat transfer equations is 24000 kJ/day. So I want to know what is the QHEAT caculation model in TRNSYS? Why both of them are so much defferent?

Many thanks!

br.

wang
2011/3/10 <trnsys-users-request@cae.wisc.edu>
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Today's Topics:

1. problem in trnbuild (Serban Cristina)
2. Re: problem in trnbuild (Matt Duffy)
3. Type 927 W/W heat pump (Partenay, Vincent)
4. Re: Type 927 W/W heat pump (Matt Duffy)
5. Wall heat transfer model in TRNSYS (??)

---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
From: Serban Cristina <cristina.serban@unitbv.ro>
To: <trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 12:33:42 +0200
Subject: [TRNSYS-users] problem in trnbuild

Dear trnsys users,

I am a new user of TRNSYS and I have encountered some problems.

I created a multizone building in simulation studio, and when I edited the building in trnbuild I created a new wall but I haven't defined layers in it.
Now when I try to edit the building to define the wall the error: no layers defined in mtype13 appears. I click ok and trnbuild closes.
How can I define my wall? is there a way? or do I have to start over again?

My building has 4 zones but they are displayed on 2 levels (floors). Is there a way to automatically create the building on 2 levels?
In trnbuild each zone has 5 walls. If I add a new wall type (e.g. ceiling) to each zone will the building be with two levels?

P.S. I tried using the trnsys3d plugin but it doesn't work. It gives me too many errors.

PhD. Cristina SERBAN
Transilvania University of Brasov
Department of Renewable Energy Systems and Recycling

---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
From: Matt Duffy <duffy@tess-inc.com>
To: Serban Cristina <cristina.serban@unitbv.ro>
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 06:25:48 -0600
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] problem in trnbuild
Dear Cristina,

Since you are a new user, I am going to suggest that you instead use and learn the Trnsys3D plugin for Google SketchUp. There is a great tutorial that will walk you through everything, it is simple to apply multiple zones, add windows, and shading. After you import this Trnsys3d (*.idf) file into TrnBuild, you can indeed change the wall constructions. Please give it a try and let me know if you have any questions.

Best regards,

Matt Duffy
Thermal Energy Systems Specialists

Sent from my mobile wireless device. Please excuse any typos.

On Mar 10, 2011, at 4:33 AM, Serban Cristina <cristina.serban@unitbv.ro> wrote:

> Dear trnsys users,
>
> I am a new user of TRNSYS and I have encountered some problems.
>
> I created a multizone building in simulation studio, and when I edited the building in trnbuild I created a new wall but I haven't defined layers in it.
> Now when I try to edit the building to define the wall the error: no layers defined in mtype13 appears. I click ok and trnbuild closes.
> How can I define my wall? is there a way? or do I have to start over again?
>
> My building has 4 zones but they are displayed on 2 levels (floors). Is there a way to automatically create the building on 2 levels?
> In trnbuild each zone has 5 walls. If I add a new wall type (e.g. ceiling) to each zone will the building be with two levels?
>
>
> P.S. I tried using the trnsys3d plugin but it doesn't work. It gives me too many errors.
>
> PhD. Cristina SERBAN
> Transilvania University of Brasov
> Department of Renewable Energy Systems and Recycling
>
> _______________________________________________
> TRNSYS-users mailing list
> TRNSYS-users@cae.wisc.edu
> https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users

---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
From: "Partenay, Vincent" <vincent.partenay@cstb.fr>
To: "trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu" <trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:01:25 +0000
Subject: [TRNSYS-users] Type 927 W/W heat pump

Dear all,

I’m working with the new type 927 and I would like to get some information about how it works

Is there an available detailed documentation of Type 927 ?

Thanks in advance,

Vincent PARTENAY

Energies Renouvelables - Département ESE

Centre Scientifique et Technique du Bâtiment

290 Route des Lucioles BP 209 – F 06904 Sophia Antipolis Cedex

Tél : +33-(0)4-93-95-67-21

Fax : +33-(0)4-93-95-64-31

Évitez d’imprimer vos emails inutilement. Respectez l’environnement

---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
From: "Matt Duffy" <duffy@tess-inc.com>
To: "Partenay, Vincent" <vincent.partenay@cstb.fr>, trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 09:49:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Type 927 W/W heat pump
Dear Vincent,

The detailed documentation for that component is not quite available; however, you may refer the the documentation for the previous version, Type668.

The Type927 WWHP is a fairly straightforward component. It references your manufacturer's data in the performance map in the external file. Oppose to Type668, the data file is normalized, so you can scale the power and the capacity as parameters in Type927. If you have any other particular questions about this component, please feel free to contact me.

Best regards,

Matt Duffy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Partenay, Vincent" <vincent.partenay@cstb.fr>
Sent: Thu, March 10, 2011 7:01
Subject: [TRNSYS-users] Type 927 W/W heat pump
Dear all,

I’m working with the new type 927 and I would like to get some information about how it works

Is there an available detailed documentation of Type 927 ?

Thanks in advance,

Vincent PARTENAY

Energies Renouvelables - Département ESE

< /p>

Centre Scientifique et Technique du Bâtiment

290 Route des Lucioles BP 209 – F 06904 Sophia Antipolis Cedex

Tél : +33-(0)4-93-95-67-21

Fax : +33-(0)4-93-95-64-31

Évitez d’imprimer vos emails inutilement. Respectez l’environnement
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---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
From: 王洋 <wanghongyang1767@gmail.com>
To: trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 17:46:00 +0100
Subject: [TRNSYS-users] Wall heat transfer model in TRNSYS
Dear all,

   I have some questions about Wall heat transfer model in TRNSYS:

1. I only find some equations about wall in Manual( such as Radaitive heat flows to the wall, external walls), but I only can understand a little. Please tell me some reference books about Wall heat transfer model in TRNSYS. Because I simulated an actual test room: the indoor and outdoor temperature keep the same 20°C and 10°C, respectively, during one day 24 hours. As this situation, QHEAT muss be equal to Q heat loss by walls based on energy balance. But the result of QHEAT in TRNSYS is 6632 kJ, but based on heat transfer equations I got the heat loss energy is 24307 kJ. So I want to know the Wall heat transfer model in TRNSYS.

2. To Wall heat transfer model in TRNSYS: Whether it will consider Solar absorptance and Longwave Emission or not? But I didn't define these things. But from NTYPE 906 Energy Balance for surfaces:
1_B6_BAL = -   1_B6_DQWALLdt-   1_B6_QCOMI+   1_B6_QCOMO+   1_B6_QRADGI+    1_B6_QRADGO-    1_B6_QALG
5.839E-14     -2.217E+03     -1.093E-01     -2.217E+03      3.725E-03      0.000E+00      0.000E+00

But We can see B6_QRADGI still has value as 3.725E-03. I cann't understand. Please explain possible reasons for it.

B6_DQWALLdt in Manual is change of internal energy of surface, but it's a little abstract. Here I only used the heatings in TRNBUILD, no other internal gains. PLEASE give me some examples about change of internal energy of surface. Is it energy Generation of Wall etc.? Why here is minus (-2.217E+03)? What's difference between B6_DQWALLdt and B6_QCOMO? Why here they are the same? Is there some reasons?

3. How to get or check the TRNSYS program's source code? And how to get the TRNSYS program's setup files and look over the "compiled" files(fortran) etc.? Because some simulation results I cann't understand such as the above Wall heat transfer model in TRNSYS etc. I want to understand their model and those simulation results and compare with the results by hand.

Many thanks!

br.

wang
2011/3/8 王洋 <wanghongyang1767@gmail.com>
2011/3/7 王洋 <wanghongyang1767@gmail.com>
Dear all,

   I have some questions about Wall heat transfer model in TRNSYS:

1. I only find some equations about wall in Manual( such as Radaitive heat flows to the wall, external walls), but I only can understand a little. Please tell me some reference books about Wall heat transfer model in TRNSYS. Because I simulated an actual test room: the indoor and outdoor temperature keep the same 20°C and 10°C, respectively, during one day 24 hours. As this situation, QHEAT muss be equal to Q heat loss by walls based on energy balance. But the result of QHEAT in TRNSYS is 6632 kJ, but based on heat transfer equations I got the heat loss energy is 24307 kJ. So I want to know the Wall heat transfer model in TRNSYS.

2. To Wall heat transfer model in TRNSYS: Whether it will consider Solar absorptance and Longwave Emission or not? But I didn't define these things. But from NTYPE 906 Energy Balance for surfaces:
1_B6_BAL = -   1_B6_DQWALLdt-   1_B6_QCOMI+   1_B6_QCOMO+   1_B6_QRADGI+    1_B6_QRADGO-    1_B6_QALG
5.839E-14     -2.217E+03     -1.093E-01     -2.217E+03      3.725E-03      0.000E+00      0.000E+00

But We can see B6_QRADGI still has value as 3.725E-03. I cann't understand. Please explain possible reasons for it.

B6_DQWALLdt in Manual is change of internal energy of surface, but it's a little abstract. Here I only used the heatings in TRNBUILD, no other internal gains. PLEASE give me some examples about change of internal energy of surface. Is it energy Generation of Wall etc.? Why here is minus (-2.217E+03)? What's difference between B6_DQWALLdt and B6_QCOMO? Why here they are the same? Is there some reasons?

3. How to get or check the TRNSYS program's source code? And how to get the TRNSYS program's setup files and look over the "compiled" files(fortran) etc.? Because some simulation results I cann't understand such as the above Wall heat transfer model in TRNSYS etc. I want to understand their model and those simulation results and compare with the results by hand.

Many thanks!

br.

wang
2011/3/7 <trnsys-users-request@cae.wisc.edu>
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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Questions...please reply (Matt Duffy)
2. Re: Stratified storage Tank (Matt Duffy)
3. Re: Strange error (Rambod Rayegan)
4. Re: Strange error (Matt Duffy)

---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
From: "Matt Duffy" <duffy@tess-inc.com>
To: juvenciotavares@hotmail.com, trnsys-users@engr.wisc.edu
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 09:34:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Questions...please reply

Dear Juvencio,

It appears that when you imported the file into TRNBuild, the application did not find the adjacent surface. This could be for a couple of reasons: the adjacency needs to be defined, or the surface in TRNSYS3D has a face that is reversed. Please refer to the TRNSYS3D tutorial PDF for more great information.

Best regards,

Matt Duffy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Juvêncio Correia Tavares" <juvenciotavares@hotmail.com>
Sent: Fri, March 4, 2011 10:50
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Questions...please reply
I`m doing a dynamic simulation of buildings in TRNSYS, during the simulation gave the following error ... as you can see in the picture.
how can I fix this error?

< span title="Clique para obter tradu??es alternativas" class="ecxhps">And also, I would like to send me a PDF about connection.

I await your response.

thanks.
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---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
From: "Matt Duffy" <duffy@tess-inc.com>
To: "Lei Wang" <leiwang@tees.tamus.edu>, trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 09:41:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Stratified storage Tank

Dear Lei Wang,

I just tried this, and it simulated without problems in version 17, but
when I tried in version 16, I also received the error. I can only
speculate that this is due to the changes that we implemented for
TrnsysConstants - we increased the number of parameters.
Another option besides updating to version 17 is to use the Type534 TESS
Tank model as well. Please let me know if you have any more questions
about this.

Best regards,

Matt Duffy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lei Wang" <leiwang@tees.tamus.edu>
Sent: Fri, March 4, 2011 16:17
Subject:[TRNSYS-users] Stratified storage Tank

Hi, All

I try to use the Type4a(stratified storage tank) to modeling the ChW
thermal storage
tank, which volume was 1 million gal and height was 100 feet.

The description of the type is as following
"The thermal performance of a fluid-filled sensible energy storage tank,
subject to
thermal stratification, can be modeled by assuming that the tank consists
of N (N <=
100) fully-mixed equal volume segments"

So I think the maximum nodes number can be 100.

But when I input the number of nodes were 100, the TrnExe shows that there
was a
range check error. When I check the list file, there didn't show any error
Information.

When I input the number of nodes were 80, it works fine.

Thanks

Lei

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----- End of original message -----

---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
From: Rambod Rayegan <rraye001@fiu.edu>
To: hotline <hotline@transsolar.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 10:49:42 -0500
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Strange error

Christian,

Even when I change back the roof property to the previous one, the error exists. It seems, right now, it is independent of the roof property. This is the reason that I called it strange error.

Rambod Rayegan
Ph.D Candidate
Mechanical Engineering Department
Florida International University
10555 W Flagler St, EC3620
Miami, FL, 33174

305-348-3558 (Office)
786-218-7375(Cell)
305-348-1932 (Fax)

On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 7:33 AM, hotline <hotline@transsolar.com> wrote:

Hi,

seems like you hit a limit for the generation of the transfer function coefficients.

Please check if the roof is defined correctly.

Regards

Christian

TRANSSOLAR Software Team

hotline@transsolar.com

www.trnsys.de

Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes Bauen und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden

Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart / Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id: DE152272639

Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer, Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher

Von: Rambod Rayegan [mailto:rraye001@fiu.edu]
Gesendet: Samstag, 5. März 2011 06:08
An: trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu
Betreff: [TRNSYS-users] Strange error

Dear TRNSYS users:

I am working on a model created buy TRNSYS 3d plugin in google sketchup for couple of months. Everyday I add something to it or modify some parameters in it. Today, I have just changed the roof type in the building type 56 and tried to run it again but I have received the following error:

Visual Fortran run-time error

fortrtl:severe(64):input conversion error, unit 56, file C:\.....building.trn

Image PC Routine Source DFORRT.DLL 02014C49 Unknown Unknown Unknown

Anybody has an idea to solve the issue?

Thank you.

Rambod Rayegan
Ph.D Candidate
Mechanical Engineering Department
Florida International University
10555 W Flagler St, EC3620
Miami, FL, 33174

305-348-3558 (Office)
786-218-7375(Cell)
305-348-1932 (Fax)

---------- 已转发邮件 ----------
From: "Matt Duffy" <duffy@tess-inc.com>
To: "Rambod Rayegan" <rraye001@fiu.edu>, hotline@transsolar.com
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 09:57:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Strange error
Dear Rambod,

If you send me the IDF file, I might be able to shed some light on the error.

Best regards,

Matt Duffy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rambod Rayegan" <rraye001@fiu.edu>
Sent: Mon, March 7, 2011 9:49
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Strange error
Christian,

Even when I change back the roof property to the previous one, the error exists. It seems, right now, it is independent of the roof property. This is the reason that I called it strange error.

Rambod Rayegan
Ph.D Candidate
Mechanical Engineering Department
Florida International University
10555 W Flagler St, EC3620
Miami, FL, 33174

305-348-3558 (Office)
786-218-7375(Cell)
305-348-1932 (Fax)

On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 7:33 AM, hotline <hotline@transsolar.com> wrote:

Hi,

seems like you hit a limit for the generation of the transfer function coefficients.

Please check if the roof is defined correctly.

Regards

Christian

TRANSSOLAR Software Team

hotline@transsolar.com

www.trnsys.de

Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes Bauen und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden &n! bsp;

Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart / Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id: DE152272639

Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer, Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher

Von: Rambod Rayegan [mailto:rraye001@fiu.edu]
Gesendet: Samstag, 5. M&auml! ;rz 2011 06:08
An: trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu
Betreff: [TRNSYS-users] Strange error

Dear TRNSYS users:

I am working on a model created buy TRNSYS 3d plugin in google sketchup for couple of months. Everyday I add something to it or modify some parameters in it. Today, I have just changed the roof type in the building type 56 and tried to run it again but I have received the following error:

Visual Fortran run-time error

fortrtl:severe(64):input conversion error, unit 56, file C:\.....building.trn

Image PC Routine Source DFORRT.DLL 02014C49 Unknown Unknown Unknown

Anybody has an idea to solve the issu! e?

Thank you.

Rambod Rayegan
Ph.D Candidate
Mechanical Engineering Department
Florida International University
10555 W Flagler St, EC3620
Miami, FL, 33174

305-348-3558 (Office)
786-218-7375(Cell)
305-348-1932 (Fax)
_______________________________________________
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https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users
_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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-- 
***************************
David BRADLEY
Principal
Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
Madison, WI  53703 USA

P:+1.608.274.2577
F:+1.608.278.1475
d.bradley@tess-inc.com

http://www.tess-inc.com
http://www.trnsys.com