Re: [TRNSYS-users] there are some questions about TRNFLOW 's TEST DATA thanks!

I have some questions about TRNFLOW 's TEST DATA:

To "test data" : :

1. I defined "test data", I defined initial CO2% as 1000 ppm(0.00164 kg/kg) in the test room in TRNFlow, and I defined the ambient CO2% as 400 ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg). But after running, the ambient CO2% as 400 ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg) doesn't work, the indoor CO2% reduce beyond 400 ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg) and up to 6.00E-10kg/kg, i think the air flow rate in test data works all the time, the ambient CO2% as 400 ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg) doesn't work.
So I defined an Equation in simulation studio: when CONZ(the indoor CO2% )<0.00065726, air flow factor is 0. What's the meaning of air flow factor?
I think the above problem's reason is air flow factor(1) works all the time. Is my thought right or not? Please see the ATTACHED 1st and 2nd. Please have a look at my programs whether are they right or not? If not please correct them. thanks!

But after running, I found CO2% reducing rate of the curve is very faster than my actual measurement in the test room. Please see the ATTACTED 3rd and 4th. To 3rd you can see only about 2 hours the CO2% got to 400 ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg), but to 4th the actual measurement curve in the test room: it needs about 10 hours to get to 400 ppm(0.00065726 kg/kg). Please explain it, why the difference is so bigger? Or please see the ATTACHED 1st and 2nd to verify the CO2% reducing curve in TRNFlow with ATTACTED 4th the actual measurement curve.

2. Please tell me how to get the CO2% data etc. of TRNFlow output after running?

Many thanks!

Br.

wang

2011/2/24 hotline <hotline@transsolar.com>

Dear Mr Wang,

it is not working to use CO2 concentrations if you turn off TRNFLOW.

So you will have to use TRNFLOW and if you want to define a fixed infiltration rate, then you could use the link type "test data" and so define the 0.52xx ACH.

Best regards

Christian Frenzel

TRANSSOLAR Software Team

hotline@transsolar.com

www.trnsys.de

Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes Bauen und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden

Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart / Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id: DE152272639

Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer, Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher

   Von: 王洋 [mailto:wanghongyang1767@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. Februar 2011 10:48
An: hotline
Betreff: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions about TRNSYS

Dear Mr. Frenzel,

      Thanks!

      In the TRNFlow manual: there it is explained that "As soon as TRNFLOW is turned on, (...) in the simulation the defined infiltrations, ventilations and couplings will be replaced with the calculated air flows."          The fact is that I defined initial CO2% as 1000 ppm(0.00164 kg/kg) in the test room in TRNFlow, and I defined the ambient CO2% as 380 ppm(0.0005819 kg/kg). Meanwhile, I defined the infiltration rate as 0.5276 1/h in TRNBUILD. I want to compare the CO2% reducing curve in the test room based on the infiltration rate 0.5276 1/h of actual measurement value with by TRNSYS simulation. But when I used TRNFLOW, the defined infiltration rate as 0.5276 1/h in TRNBUILD was replaced maybe. 1000 ppm in the test room keeps constant. Please see the ATTACHED.

    Please explain this! Or tell me how to define in TRNSYS/TRNFlow in order to compare the test room infiltration rate of actual measurement value with by TRNSYS/TRNFlow simulation? I want to observe CO2%'s reducing curve when infiltration rate is 0.5276 1/h (I measured the value in the test room) using TRNSYS/TRNFlow, to observe the CO2%'s reducing curve whether is the same as the actual measuring CO2%'s reducing curve or not?

   Many thanks!

Br.

wang

2011/2/22 hotline <hotline@transsolar.com>

Dear Mr Wang,

1) unfortunately I have no advice to this

2) The steps of the air temperature are resulting from the WALL TRANSFER FUNCTION CALCULATION. You are using a very small timestep of the simulation the wall transfer function is updated only every hour (that's the timebase). This is why you are getting these steps. So you would have to decrease the TIMEBASE by reducing the walls thickness.

3) Please have a look at the energy balance for a zone. You'll find these information in the MultizoneBuilding Manual on page 43 chapter Balance 4

Best regards

Christian Frenzel

TRANSSOLAR Software Team

hotline@transsolar.com

www.trnsys.de

Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes Bauen und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden

Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart / Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id: DE152272639

Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer, Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher

      Von: 王洋 [mailto:wanghongyang1767@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Montag, 21. Februar 2011 11:12
An: hotline
Betreff: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions about TRNSYS

Dear Mr. Frenzel,

Many thanks!

After I installed both of them once again, it's OK.

1. To radiative part: The test room has 2 heatings: one is radiator, its power is 578 W, another is convector, its power is 540 W. How can I define this situation's radiative part? As you said can I think both of them have only convective part? So I define the radiative part is 0 or not? As you know, it is very difficult to make sure what's the convective and radiative part of this test room situation. But my professor let me figure it out, so can I define the radiative part as 0? Or do you have some experience about this radiative part defining?

2. To thermal time constant: Thermal time constants are a feature of the lumped system analysis (lumped capacity analysis method) for thermal systems, used when objects cool or warm uniformly under the influence of convective cooling or warming. In this case, the heat transfer from the body to the ambient at a given time is proportional to the temperature difference between the body and the ambient.
Physically, the constant represents the time it takes the system's step response to reach $1-1/e \approx 63.2%$ of its final (asymptotic) value.

Please see ATTACHED 1st: Tset-point is 21°C from 8 am to 6 pm, other is 20°C, Thermal time constant of this test room is the time that Tindoor air gets to the 20°C +63.2%(21-20°C)=20.632°C. But this is at the situation of floor heating. I want to simulate the situation when using Radiator and Convector.
Please see ATTACHED 2nd: The result is very strange. T indoor air which rises from lower temperature to higher appeares 3 jumps, this is very strange, because I closed all the windows and turned off TRNFLOW, only defined the infiltration in order to simulate the actual situation of the test room. But, meanwhile, QHeat is keeping constant.
Please see the .tpf and ,bui files of ATTACHED.

Please tell me how to get the thermal time constant of the test room using TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the ideal heating?

3. To ideal heating: Where is this heating? Can I define its position? How is it operating or working?

Many thanks!

br.

wang

2011/2/18 hotline <hotline@transsolar.com>

Dear Mr Wang,

I assume that after installing the TRNSYS 17.00.0019 version you installed the latest TRNFLOW version from the 12.1.2011 .

These two versions have to be installed. If you have these two then please make sure that you have fully reading and writing rights for the TRNSYS 17 installation folder.

Every heat source has a certain radiative part and convective part, it's up to you to define these values. If you want to get further information about this please refer to common literature about heat exchange.

Ideal heating means a theoretical value that directly interacts with the energy balance of an airnode. It represents the heating that is required/available to heat up the room air temperature. The energy balance of an airnode you can find in the MultizoneBuilding manual.

If you explain me the meaning of the TIME CONSTANT and the context of what you are comparing then maybe we could have an advice.

Best regards

Christian Frenzel

TRANSSOLAR Software Team

hotline@transsolar.com

www.trnsys.de

Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes Bauen und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden

Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart / Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id: DE152272639

Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer, Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher

         Von: 王洋 [mailto:wanghongyang1767@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Freitag, 18. Februar 2011 14:16
An: hotline
Betreff: Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions about TRNSYS

Dear Mr. Frenzel,

Please tell me: All the program is OK, but after I update the TRNFlow, I want to RUN or right-click TYPE 56 and select EDIT Building, it appears at once Visual Studio Debugger Window! I cann't RUN the .tpf file and Edit building. But I can directly open the same .bui file from TRNBuild not from Simulation Studio and right-click TYPE 56 and select Edit Building.

I think the connection between Simualtion Studio and TRNBuild is having problem after update TRNFLow.

The bug shows Unbahandelte win32- Ausnahme in TRNBuild.exe(1564)
Mögliche Debugger:
Neue Instanz von Visual Studio 2005

PLEASE tell me how to solve with it?

I'm extremely worried!

1. Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE PART in HEATING option? If the heating are Radiator and Convector, how to define this RADIATIVE PART? What's percent to set? 0 or other?

    2. I defined a set point indoor temperature:20C from 8 am to 6 pm, other time is 18 C in the test room . I used the HEATING to realize it, but the heating is ideal heating. Please tell me what's the meaning of ideal heating?

The result is the indoor temperature can get to the set point at once and no time delay, so I cann't get the THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the test room. But my professor let me use TRNSYS to verify the result of using TRNSYS to calculate the time constant and actual measurement test room result of time constant. Please tell me how to get the thermal time constant of the test room using TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the ideal heating?

2011/2/18 王洋 <wanghongyang1767@gmail.com>

Dear Mr. Frenzel,

Please tell me: All the program is OK, but after I update the TRNFlow, I want to RUN or EDIT Building, it appears at once Visual Studio Debugger Window! I cann't RUN the .tpf file and Edit building.

IT shows Unbahandelte win32- Ausnahme in TRNBuild.exe(1564)
Mögliche Debugger:
Neue Instanz von Visual Studio 2005

PLEASE tell me how to solve with it?

I'm extremely worried!

1. Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE PART in HEATING option? If the heating are Radiator and Convector, how to define this RADIATIVE PART? What's percent to set? 0 or other?

    2. I defined a set point indoor temperature:20C from 8 am to 6 pm, other time is 18 C in the test room . I used the HEATING to realize it, but the heating is ideal heating. Please tell me what's the meaning of ideal heating?

The result is the indoor temperature can get to the set point at once and no time delay, so I cann't get the THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the test room. But my professor let me use TRNSYS to verify the result of using TRNSYS to calculate the time constant and actual measurement test room result of time constant. Please tell me how to get the thermal time constant of the test room using TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the ideal heating?

Many thanks!

Br.

wang

2011/2/18 王洋 <wanghongyang1767@gmail.com>

Dear Mr. Frenzel,

Please tell me: All the program is OK, but after I update the TRNFlow, I want to RUN or EDIT Building, it appears at once Visual Studio Debugger Window! I cann't RUN the .tpf file and Edit building.

PLEASE tell me how to solve with it?

I'm extremely worried!

1. Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE PART in HEATING option? If the heating are Radiator and Convector, how to define this RADIATIVE PART? What's percent to set? 0 or other?

    2. I defined a set point indoor temperature:20C from 8 am to 6 pm, other time is 18 C in the test room . I used the HEATING to realize it, but the heating is ideal heating. Please tell me what's the meaning of ideal heating?

The result is the indoor temperature can get to the set point at once and no time delay, so I cann't get the THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the test room. But my professor let me use TRNSYS to verify the result of using TRNSYS to calculate the time constant and actual measurement test room result of time constant. Please tell me how to get the thermal time constant of the test room using TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the ideal heating?

Many thanks!

Br.

wang

2011/2/17 王洋 <wanghongyang1767@gmail.com>

Dear Mr. Frenzel,

thanks!

1. Please tell me what's meaning of RADIATIVE PART in HEATING option? If the heating are Radiator and Convector, how to define this RADIATIVE PART? What's percent to set? 0 or other?

    2. I defined a set point indoor temperature:20C from 8 am to 6 pm, other time is 18 C in the test room . I used the HEATING to realize it, but the heating is ideal heating. Please tell me what's the meaning of ideal heating?

The result is the indoor temperature can get to the set point at once and no time delay, so I cann't get the THERMAL TIME CONSTANT of the test room. But my professor let me use TRNSYS to verify the result of using TRNSYS to calculate the time constant and actual measurement test room result of time constant. Please tell me how to get the thermal time constant of the test room using TRNSYS? Or how to explain to my professor the ideal heating?

Many thanks!

br.

wang

2011/2/15 hotline <hotline@transsolar.com>

Dear Mr. Wang,

2. Indeed in this program has no TRNFLOW, Do you mean the infiltration only includes the amount of air entering the room at TAMB condition?

right

Did you see the last email's ATTACHEDs? But I got the result of QINF which are the same when the infiltration is on or off. I think TNRSYS's results are questionable. Why I turn off the infiltration, is there still having QINF?

If you are using TRNFLOW then these definitions replace the definitions in the ZONE regime data like INFILTRATION, VENTILATION and COUPLING

And when the walls are massless or massive, the result of QINF which are the same, it's 190.73 kJ all the time not only turning on the infiltration but also turning off it; not only massless but also massive.

You have defined wind influence and so even if the windows are closed you get a certain infiltration

Best regards

Christian Frenzel

TRANSSOLAR Software Team

hotline@transsolar.com

www.trnsys.de

Transsolar KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes Bauen und Nutzerkomfort in Gebäuden

Transsolar Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart / Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347 / UsSt.-Id: DE152272639

Geschäftsführer: Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. Thomas Auer, Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Volkmar Bleicher