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Re: [TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based onoperativetemperature

Title: [TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based on operativetemperature
Hello Maarten!
 
I always made good experiences with Type22.
In You first mail You wrote that You're limited in Your heating power, so it would be logical if the heating power wouldn't be sufficient.
Is the heating power at maximum if You have the high differences and what direction are this differences (to hot or to cold)?
What is Your "Threshold for non-zero output" value?
 
With kind regards,
    Matthias Kersken

---

 

Dipl.-Ing. Matthias Kersken
Wissenschaftlicher Mitarbeiter / Abteilung Energiesysteme

Fraunhofer-Institut für Bauphysik
Institutsteil Holzkirchen

Fraunhoferstraße 10
83626 Valley

eMail: Matthias.Kersken@ibp.fraunhofer.de
Telefon 08024 / 643-204
Telefax 08024 / 643-366
www.ibp.fraunhofer.de

Dipl.-Ing. Matthias Kersken
Research Associate / Department Energy Systems

Fraunhofer Institute for Building Physics
Branch Holzkirchen

Fraunhoferstraße 10
D-83626 Valley

eMail: Matthias.Kersken@ibp.fraunhofer.de
Phone +49 8024 / 643-204
Fax +49 8024 / 643-366
www.ibp.fraunhofer.de

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Von: Maarten Sourbron [mailto:Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be]
Gesendet: Freitag, 19. Februar 2010 11:55
An: trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu
Cc: Kersken, Matthias; Sabine Jansen - BK; olsen@transsolar.com; keilholz, werner
Betreff: Re: AW: [TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based onoperativetemperature

Thank you all for your answers : I checked the different solutions proposed.

With the type22 (iterative feedback controller) it seems to work but for some reason the controller seems satisfied with a resulting temperature lying outside the imposed tolerance (tol = 0.2K while Toperative - Tset = 0.8K sometimes).  I didn't check the controllers algorithme to find out what's going on, though.  The controller status indicated for most of the timesteps a value of 65 (1 + 64), which means the u-e - curve is 'too steep' for the controller.  This might cause the problem?

With the reverse procedure suggested by mr. Olsen, it works fine, except from the fact that the mean radiant temp used to calculate the 'corrected' T_air, is always from the previous timestep (or am I mistaking here?).  But, since Trad_mean doesn't change quickly, this only leeds to a minor deviation (0.1K max).

The Top-equation suggested by mr. Keilholz is more detailed, but the PID controller I tried quickly didn't manage to keep Top constant.  I didn't look at it very carefully to find good controller parameters, I admit.

Thank you all!

Kind regards,

Maarten



Kersken, Matthias schreef:
Hello Ms. Jansen and Mr. Sourbron!
 
I also think the solution has to be outside Type56.
 
If You use an iterative-feedback-controller (Type22) instead of Type2 and feed the operative temperature in as "controlled variable", define Your Setpoint and give the output of the controller as Gain in the thermal zone You should be able to avoid the hysteresis-effect occoring when using Type2. (You can also set a maximum output/heating power).
 
Using Type2 a bigger Deadband or a shorter timestep my also solve the problem.
 
With kind regards,
    Matthias Kersken
 

---

Dipl.-Ing. Matthias Kersken
Wissenschaftlicher Mitarbeiter / Abteilung Energiesysteme

Fraunhofer-Institut für Bauphysik
Institutsteil Holzkirchen

Fraunhoferstraße 10
83626 Valley

eMail: Matthias.Kersken@ibp.fraunhofer.de
Telefon 08024 / 643-204
Telefax 08024 / 643-366
www.ibp.fraunhofer.de

Dipl.-Ing. Matthias Kersken
Research Associate / Department Energy Systems

Fraunhofer Institute for Building Physics
Branch Holzkirchen

Fraunhoferstraße 10
D-83626 Valley

eMail: Matthias.Kersken@ibp.fraunhofer.de
Phone +49 8024 / 643-204
Fax +49 8024 / 643-366
www.ibp.fraunhofer.de

---

 

Von: Sabine Jansen - BK [mailto:S.C.Jansen@tudelft.nl]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 18. Februar 2010 14:51
An: Maarten Sourbron; trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu
Betreff: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based onoperativetemperature

Dear all,
 
I am also interensted in that question.
 
The only way I know now how to solve this is by using a type (controller, type 2 or thermostat, type 8) outside type 56. The the operative zone temperature must be connected to this type (e.g. 2b and creating a schedule elsewhere, in an equation solver), and the heating must be defined as a limited power connected to an input, which is then the output of the control type (type 2 or type 8).
 
One problem with this approach is that I cannot use a very large heating power anymore, since that causes the controller to switch on and off. Thus the heating power must be determined using the ideal heating, based on air temperature, first.
 
If there is an easier way, I am also very happy.
 
 
Kind regards,
 
Sabine Jansen

Van: Maarten Sourbron [mailto:Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be]
Verzonden: do 18-2-2010 13:53
Aan: trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu
Onderwerp: [TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based on operativetemperature

Dear all,

The simplified heating and cooling in Trnbuild is now comparing the zone
AIR temperature with the given set points.  Is there a way to change
this (or another controller model) to have the zone OPERATIVE
temperature compared with the set points?

Kind regards,

Maarten Sourbron

--
Departement Werktuigkunde-Department of Mechanical Engineering
Katholieke Universiteit Leuven
Celestijnenlaan 300A bus 2421
3001 Heverlee (Leuven)
T : 0032 (0)16 32 28 73
F : 0032 (0)16 32 29 85
E : Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be

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-- 
Departement Werktuigkunde-Department of Mechanical Engineering 
Katholieke Universiteit Leuven
Celestijnenlaan 300A bus 2421
3001 Heverlee (Leuven)
T : 0032 (0)16 32 28 73
F : 0032 (0)16 32 29 85
E : Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be

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